tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730513615909994019.post4205366001714216925..comments2024-03-29T07:22:38.372+00:00Comments on Pop Classics: Imperium (by Robert Harris)Juliettehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00203399623895589924noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730513615909994019.post-68151272904225304882010-12-15T18:03:45.131+00:002010-12-15T18:03:45.131+00:00JM - that's a good point about Clodius and Clo...JM - that's a good point about Clodius and Clodia, and it may be that Cicero was justified.<br /><br />The two bits of Cicero's writing that I've looked at in detail are the Pro Caelio and the De Divinatione. De Div is all right (though it goes on forever) but Cicero's method of setting up Quintus with a lot of opinions he himself will then disprove, while perfectly acceptable as a philosophical dialogue, does rather emphasise his opinion of himself - Plato, for example, usually had Socrates present the most interesting ideas, not himself (I thought Harris presented the Quintus/Cicero relationship rather nicely, certainly in line with how Cicero presented it). And I still find the Pro Caelio way over the top in terms of character assassination, not to mention that even if they did commit incest, that had no bearing on the case. I think I agree with DemetriosX that Cicero's failings as a person rather outweigh, for me, his achievements. I love Bamber's portryal of him though - Bamber, to me, will always be Mr Collins from Pride and Prejudice, but somehow, that almost works as an association - social climber, respectable, but not actually very nice... ;)Juliettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00203399623895589924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730513615909994019.post-70486417480131310902010-12-15T13:07:52.564+00:002010-12-15T13:07:52.564+00:00I'm rather conflicted about Cicero. I first re...I'm rather conflicted about Cicero. I first really got to know him as more than just a name from the early Gordianus books, where he was at least somewhat sympathetically portrayed. I do find much to admire in his speeches and essays. I even forgive him for blowing his own horn so much, since that was the only way he was ever going to advance.<br /><br />On the other hand, he appears to have become rather fond of power and its use (for example, his handling of the Cataline affair and the use of the <i>mos maiorum</i>). He also seems to have been an insufferable prig. The lack of sex in the book seems to be appropriate. What I think I can forgive him least for is the way he coddled his son, while simultaneously denigrating his nephew, when the evidence would seem to indicate he should have reversed that. He also essentially condemned his brother and nephew to death be refusing to help them flee Italy during the civil war following Caesar's assassination.<br /><br />In a way, he's rather like Alkibiades (a comparison that would annoy him no end, I'm sure): brilliant at what he did, but his failures as a human being detract so much that it is hard to admire him.DemetriosXnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730513615909994019.post-55774465817978058682010-12-15T04:33:27.663+00:002010-12-15T04:33:27.663+00:00i've never read anything by harris, but have m...i've never read anything by harris, but have meant to for years now. you've motivated me to go and find a copy to read over christmas.<br /><br />i'm not sure if i like cicero much, but i certainly admire his intellect. for me it was reading some of his philosophical works (rather than his speeches) that made me see him in a more sympathetic light.<br /><br />as for clodius and clodia, i don't claim to know whether they did or didn't sleep with each other, but the rumours to that effect must have been pretty well-known, otherwise cicero's jokes in <i>pro caelio</i> would have fallen flat. there's also the catullus poem (can't remember which one off the top of my head) that alludes to just such a relationship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730513615909994019.post-31751276798110867102010-12-15T02:11:51.019+00:002010-12-15T02:11:51.019+00:00Wonderful review Juliette. I actually have the una...Wonderful review Juliette. I actually have the unabridged audio versions of the first two, which are wonderfully done - a great accompaniment to a long hike!<br /><br />I can never got the blatant dislike people have for Cicero. Someone whose voice echoes so clearly through the ages and has influenced so many in a positive way. Having an inkling of his flaws makes him all the more admirable as they are flaws of an internal nature that we can all be subject to. <br /><br />I think some of this stems from where you may have first been exposed to Cicero. For me it was through David Bamber! Had I needed to wade through Cicero's writings in Latin as I probably would be much less impressed with him too! Bamber does a great job portraying Cicero in 'Rome', noble minded yet flawed at the same time. The <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R73nvRPNSHA" rel="nofollow">death scene</a> was particularly well done. I love how Tiro runs out to vainly defend Cicero. It may not have been historically accurate but it was a nice display of Tiro's affection for Cicero.<br /><br />The common argument that Cicero enjoyed self promotion a little too much is explored further in book two. A mistake commonly made here is ascribing our modern Western sensibilities about this fact to a person from another region, let alone era. If you've spent enough time in Italy, looking at its artworks or studying the history of its upper crust, they are perennial self promoters - even to this day.<br /><br />This element of the Southern psyche that lends itself to self glorification is nicely illustrated in Roman sculpture. Were enough Roman painting to survive, we would likely see something similar to the Renaissance where prominent persons had themselves painted into important scenes in a glorified manner. <br /><br />IIRC there is a scene in book 2 about one of Pompey's supporters having exactly such an elaborate and gaudy decoration featuring Pompey painted in his house :)<br /><br />I'm really looking forward to Book 3 due next year!<br /><br />Kind Regards<br />HAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02091875643921165081noreply@blogger.com